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Foreign To be joined by the one and only the Co-founder of hedera as well as uh the Inventor of the hashgraph algorithm Dr Lehman beard how are you doing today I'm Doing well how about you no I'm doing Good and any day we get to talk about a Project that I really like uh you know It's a good day coming straight to the Source Um you invented uh the algorithm for Hashgraph you want to tell me just a Little bit about that Sure so it was just sort of a math Problem I thought was fun I like to work On fun math problems and I was trying to See could you be extremely fast and at The same time be extremely secure abft Which means you have all sorts of Security guarantees that we can talk About and I I kept working on it and Kept convincing myself that it was Impossible that you could be fast or you Could be abft really secure but you Couldn't be both and I would just work On it really hard and then set it aside And but it would just come and nag at me And I have fun math problems I do just For fun that have been nagging at me for Decades but but on this one in 2015 I Finally realized wait a second every Time you send a message to someone if You just include the hashes of the last Two messages the last one you created
The last one you received then you Magically could after you spread the Message to everybody put them in order With zero communication and so you could Have full abft security with extreme Speed just get the messages out and Everybody already knows what order They're in and you don't have to do Anything to slow yourselves down to Reach consensus and so that was that was Hashgraph wow that's cool uh when I was Younger and I tried to solve a math Problem that I couldn't figure out Um I just copied from somebody else's Paper Yeah good solution yeah no I'm just Kidding I never did that I never did That uh Miss smithyman okay so let's Talk about uh the abft as you were um Referring to Um stands for some type of fault Tolerance I I would assume it is Asynchronous Byzantine fault tolerance So the Byzantine fault tolerance says That even if almost a third of your Machines are evil controlled by a bad Guy trying to hurt you and if the Internet is controlled by the bad guy They will not be able to force you to to Fork the network and do double spins They will not allow you to do anything Malicious you can't change history you Can't do any of the bad things if the Internet works even a little bit they
Can't freeze you forever as long as less Than a third of the computers are owned By bad guys and the internet's Controlled by bad guys you're fine That's bft Byzantine fault tolerance Right the only problem is that often People do a a form of bft where if Someone ddoses you if they do a Distributed denial of service attack They can shut down the entire network by Shutting down one computer so a lot of Bft systems work by having computers Take turns being the leader and the Leader gets to control the consensus Entirely like the king for the next few Seconds and then they take turns but if You can DDOS the leader you can freeze The whole network and then when you Switch to a new leader you can switch to That ddot's in the new leader and shut Down the whole network A b of t asynchronous b of T says that That won't work and so with hashgraph if You shut well there's no leader if you Shut down one computer there's no way to Shut down the whole network you can even Shut down a cluster of a whole bunch of Computers and you can't shut down the Whole network you'd have to shut down a Full third of the computers to shut down The network so abft is the highest Security bft means nobody's going to be Able to do double spins and a bft means You don't have that trivial attack
Interesting interesting yeah important Stuff that just the average crypto user Doesn't think about because we're used To if you do things on chain in general Everything's going to be safe Um you know now if you go to centralized Exchanges obviously a lot of their stuff Isn't fake uh there have been or isn't Uh you know a lot a lot of their stuff Uh has been hacked uh you know and Obviously the insolvencies that recently Occurred Um your money wasn't safe there now There are also a lot of hacks that occur On bridges in between chains Um but you know you got to go back to You know the Dow hack of ethereum back In uh 2015 I think it was uh really defined a Top top coin getting a major hack uh so And it was really just a hack of the uh Of the Dow itself but this is something That without this underlying security Or something like the hedera network uh None of this works the right Decentralization only works if it's Super secure Um what what do you think let's move on To talk a little bit about Um the network itself and and what is Being used on the network right now Right because everybody you know what They're doing uh they're throwing money At coins they're throwing money at uh
Ticker symbols H bar I like that that Sounds cool I go to the bar let me Invest in it you know the vast majority Of people putting money in Um you know users with wallets they Really don't have a clue what's going on On the network itself right What what separates the hedera network From let's say ethereum or let's say Cardano So um in addition to the abft stuff that We just talked about which is important And the proof of stake it's not proof of Work it's proof of stake which gives you Really good energy is it a specific kind Of proof of stake or just proof of stake So uh yeah it's hashgraph proof of stick Okay so yeah but it Um a report came out from UCL that Looked at all the proof of stake or all The chains in general and we were the Lowest energy per transaction we were The greenest of all the measures and we Buy carbon credits to be carbon neutral And then by extras to be carbon negative We are the least amount of energy even Less than spending a Visa credit card When you use your Visa credit card You're dumping 100 times as much carbon Into the atmosphere than if you do a Transaction on hedera wow so Um that's that's a big difference Um and and these other ledgers use a lot More energy uh sometimes you just
Mentioned use a lot more energy Thousands of times So we we have all of those things but I Agree with you what really matters is What is being built on this and what we Are seeing are really serious things Being built on this you have people like Aberdeen which is one of the largest Groups of Investments there are Tokenizing them all and putting them on Here or you have dla Piper one of the World's largest legal firms is Tokenizing assets and so you'll have all Sorts of real estate and Fine Art and Fine wine and all these sorts of things Tokenized and on The Ledger in a way That's illegal because it's a legal firm Doing it Which is important so it is important Yeah that you get it right Uh we have people like Avery Dennison so You know that they do stickers and paper And things they're famous for that but They they create barcodes and RFID chips That track individual objects they have Billions of objects that they are Tracking through the supply chain and The whole world is suffering right now With bad supply chain problems and part Of the solution is to manage what's Going on and you can do that by Tokenizing and so they are tokenizing on Hedera to put all these things on hedera And then you can track them and you can
Also do things like track if you buy Some food uh where did the components Get uh sourced were they ethically Sourced was there slave labor or child Labor involved if you buy diamonds or They ethically sourced or they blood Diamonds these sorts of things So these are sort of the important Things that truly change the world and This is what people are building on Hedera some of these big things now We're also doing fun things um asphalt Is a triple A game I can't wait there's Trailers out but I can't wait for the Actual game to drop that uses nfts for Assets in the game that you can transfer To other games those nfts are on hedera And uh it's a AAA game I'm really Looking forward to Asphalt at least the Trailers look like a lot of fun what Kind of what kind of game is it like What like Yeah I would say first person shooter But okay their description it sounds Like they want to do that but they also Want it to be an RPC and they also want It to be something else and then it's Also tied into all sorts of things like Comic books yeah there'll be nfts Associated with comic books as well it's It's a whole asphalt Um ecosystem yeah well we we've been Working on some comic book stuff Ourselves it's it's hard to get a comic
Book nft correct because uh well on Ethereum it's very hard because the gas Fees when we made the comic book like it Was going to be one nft was gonna be one Page But the gassies were so insanely high That we ended up sitting on it we got Some people that might still be working On some of that stuff but uh tell me About the uh about the uh hedera would You call it the H bar or hedera nft Community In their Community okay the people in it Call themselves H barbarians I like it Yeah I like that and also you talk about The price price is a huge Factor yeah so If you want to transfer one of the nfts On our Ledger it's a tenth of a cent wow And so that really is helpful businesses Really do care about that uh maybe You've just go out and buy one nft in Your life you don't really care if you Pay a lot of money but for business you Really need yeah low prices but you need Something else too you need predictable Prices I said a tenth of a cent I didn't Tell you how many H bars it is it Actually uses the current price of h Spark to price it in so it's always a Consistent tenth of a cent it's a Thousandth of a US dollar and you can Predict it and build your company Knowing what it's going to cost Like almost like a like an algorithmic
Uh Gatsby this is right algorithmic gas Speed yeah right wow wow was that was That terminology correct Um you made it up and I liked what you Made us I haven't heard it before I like It well the only thing I don't like is That you could say bad things about Algorithmic stable coins so I don't want To be tarred with that brush yeah well You know maybe no no I I don't think uh Algorithmic stable coins uh are gonna be Doing too well for a while you know the US government says they may ban them for Two years which I don't think is Honestly a bad idea because There aren't going to be any working Ones in two years anyways you know like Obviously we've gotta you know rebuild And tear down uh and do that again so Let's talk about Um one of the things that I remember About uh hedera from early on Um was It launched and I think there was a Google partnership in the beginning is That correct like you guys had a lot of Part had a lot of Partnerships and I Remember uh I think you guys uh do you Work with a Texas blockchain council as Well I believe you know that too yeah so That stuff I remember from back in the Day so tell us about uh uh we worked With the Texas blockchain council a Little bit into some roundabout ways
Through the Texas state house but tell Us about your Partnerships you know why Should people be excited about what's Going on uh off chain with yeah so those Things are continuing you talked about Things that happened a long time ago They are continuing these aren't Flashing a pan things the Texas Blockchain council I find very exciting They're doing all sorts of things They're trying to make Texas a leader Among the states when it comes to Blockchain um so they're doing very cool Things and we have some involvement with That man is more involved than I am with That yeah but then you have Google and Google is a partner but they're not just A partner so the way we work we have Really good governance The way governance works is there are 27 Different companies that each own 127th Of hedera and when it comes to making Decisions about the code base and the Features and the prices and Google's one Of them so Google is a council member And that doesn't mean an advisor doesn't Mean a partner it means they're a part Owner and we have a very diverse Council They are spread across different Continents they're in different Industries we have some of the top 10 Universities in the world on our Council Three universities we've got people in Different Industries so we have legal
And we have Banking and we have payment Systems and we have telecommunications And we have all sorts of different Things uh uh in this Indus different Industries and they even have time Limits and so when we get to the full 39 You have only two terms you're allowed To serve of three years each and then After that they have to leave and then Somebody else comes in so this is how The governance is done No we're we're in the process of letting You know lots of people run nodes but The governance will remain this way and This is very decentralized now you could Say other ledgers hey we're Decentralized we'll let anybody with a Coin vote Yes but then you find that Just a handful of whales end up Dominating or they say well let anybody Do it it's up to the developer the People running the code but then you end Up Developers that end up really running it What we have here is transparency So there's no one talking behind closed Doors about how it works it's actually Transparent we publish the minutes of When the council are discussing things It kind of reminds me of what uh what it What was it called at first the Facebook Coin Libra at first right now it's DM it Sounds like what they were doing with The council right they had they had a
Council over in Switzerland have you Seen that it's kind of a similar model When they came out of with that with DM At the very beginning yeah so we had a Full page ad in the New York in the New York times I think it was or the Wall Street Journal Wall Street Journal maybe That said um thank you as plagiaries the Sincerest form of flattery yeah oh wow Okay we appreciate you copying our Business model You're saying it yeah yeah Um what it turned out though in Retrospect we found out that they Weren't actually governing The Way We Were governing and Facebook was going to Use a coin that wasn't actually part of Their Network it was maybe something Separate there was all sorts of crazy Stuff but at least on the surface it Sounded like they were doing it the way We were doing it yeah which is really The right way to do it and we we thanked Them for uh compliment yeah that's That's hilarious uh obviously it didn't Work uh they never got approved but um You were continuing on um that you were Still gonna make a point I think I Wrapped you there oh yeah I was just Saying they plagiarized us better more Closely it would have worked better but Yeah it didn't plagiarize enough they Should have plagiarized more yeah so This Council
Um I I like the idea of it Um obviously there's some centralized Companies on it which you know it is What it is I mean there's no such thing As a decentralized company really Um Dara isn't centralized right as opposed To other ledgers where it's an Individuals each of those people is a Centralized person but it's maybe a Handful of people yeah that's the Difference uh you know Bitcoin has a Dozen people that run the the pools and So you know you have a great deal of Power that's fairly concentrated yeah And then you look at the Block stream Developers and how you know much sweet Sway that blockstream has over the Voluntary uh you know Bitcoin developers Look if people want to parse down Anything there's no such thing as Completely decentralized it doesn't Really exist I mean somebody had to come Up with the name of Bitcoin you know at Some point there was one person that Made some decisions now granted the Network the way it runs is the you know The most decentralized that we have out There today but you know I I think it's Very fascinating when you get into the Centralization versus decentralization Argument Um now one thing about you guys Um is I want to ask you real quick uh go
Off script here a little bit Um and ask you About what is going on with Um kind of just in general with Centralized exchanges and uh obviously The insolvencies they've been horrible And they just you know seem to continue Haven't had one I don't know since last Week maybe uh what do you think from Your standpoint uh is a way that Decentralization or a layer one Blockchain do you guys see yourself Layer one correct oh yeah I get you know Polka dot scissors layer zero now now There's other ones saying we're layer Zero you know okay well then we're not Layer negative one yeah there there you Go there I like it I like it I like it Whatever Um but what role do you think that uh Lair one protocols and blockchains have Uh in the future of crypto trading Investing and keeping people safe when It comes to uh you know losing all their Money on these exchanges We have seen horrible things happen in The recent past and what bothers me is That they were avoidable they really Should not have happened Look If you can trade on a decks if you're Talking about tokens you just be using Dex's why you'd be centralized at all if You have to go from Fiat to the Token
Then yes you need a centralized exchange But that centralized exchange should Serve as an exchange not as an Investment company not a DC firm not it Anyway if you separate out these things And if you let each person do just what They can do Um I have a very low opinion of custody As well and I think d-rec is the way to Fix that that's a big push this year for Us is to get away from custody you know People say not your keys not your coins Well you know there's a lot to be said For that philosophy and you really Should keep your own keys and use direct Or something to protect it so I think That a lot of these problems that we're Seeing in our industry are teething Pains of the industry I hate it because It was painful and I hate it because it Was really avoidable but in the future Where we're going to end up is that we Centralize as little as possible and you Know Fiat the crypto okay you have to Have a central guy in some sense but a Lot of the other things that are going On don't have have to be centralized and They should be decentralized yeah I Agree with you totally and I learned I Learned my lesson you know the thing is I came in crypto I mean I came in 2012 I Went through my gocs so you think I Would take them to him but I I Disappeared for years I thought Bitcoin
Was over after Mel Cox uh you know went Down and so 2017 I come back in like you Know Bullhead of steam uh you know ready To get all in this and since then with The exception of very small exchanges we Haven't had any major insolvencies or Hacks had the big rail hack you know Back in the day with with Ray blocks or Nano whatever you want to call it but Because I had so much time under my belt Saying that oh all these exchanges are Fine I got too comfortable and even Though I knew you were supposed to Custody you know we left all right we You it was my business here we use Celsius like it was a bank account Terrible terrible terrible idea so I Think going forward as the decentralized Community Um or the the blockchain community of Layer ones is they push to have more Stuff on chain uh and those of us to Comment on all this stuff we push to Make sure people understand like no it's Just not something we're saying like Really not your keys not crypto like I Lost all my crypto that way you know I Think I think that's going to be Something that uh you know I think will Lend to a better uh Bull Run in the next Cycle where many people will get his Wrecked but you know there'll be much More people coming in so who knows Um all right are there any changes
Coming to the uh tokenomics of the hbar Ecosystem not really um so not that I'm Anticipating we did publish uh some Things on our site recently and you Would see that the release schedule has Changed and the big thing there was that We have decentralized by standing up Several organizations separating them Out we don't control them anymore so the Hbar foundation now gives grants it used To be hedera and now that has been Separated up and so now the h-bar Foundation gives grants and you have the Hashgraph association and they give Grants and they also do training and Certification and so we what we are Getting is this ecosystem of different Organizations that are being split out Uh even swirls Labs split up from hedera So the people doing the programming are Separate from hedera itself and so that Has affected um the release schedule and Those things and they're all on a Website and you can see them uh are we Seeing big changes coming in the future I'm not anticipating anything but you Never know but right now we just are Heads down trying to build as fast as we Can we're hiring engineers and just Trying to build and and get ready for The end of the crypto winter yeah that's Right well you guys could be like Stellar uh if you want to look up to a Project and they just decided on a whim
They're going to burn half their supply And just did it so you know that changed Their tokenomics Um you know that was back in uh 2019 you Know like that's not the way Decentralization is supposed to work Where the person in charge says hey Let's not tell anybody and let's just Burn half the coins absolutely insane Um obviously Stellar uh much more Centralized than uh hedera so let's Let's talk about other layer one Blockchains for a moment because uh you Know I I'm of the opinion I think uh Ethereum is gonna pass Bitcoin to market Cap I think that when you look at the Potential of a decentralized Internet It's just a bigger uh value proposition Than that of digital gold or a hedgeable Asset and we're a long ways away from Talking about Bitcoin is real currency And Reserve currency and things like That so you you have ethereum that's up There uh I believe cardano I think our daughter's eventually going To pass ethereum um in in four to six Years you've got algorand you have ICP Man Solana we don't really talk about it Anymore for obvious reasons tezos Cosmos There's a big landscape out there Um and for me layer one blockchains have Always been my best investment and I Don't think that's going to change Necessarily in the next the next Bull
Run maybe layer twos will be a little Better but what when you look across the Landscape who do you see as the the Serious competitors Um to to you guys and like Where are you guys at in the process of Trying to gain adoption and get up there With uh with the big boys I mean you're You're top 50 but you know not top 10. Uh so sure uh what is important I think Though is to look and and the names you Said are all all people that you know Are competitors but what's important is To actually be building things Especially now during crypto winter Having actual real world applications Building on you that are important Applications they aren't just People investing in these coins because They like the name and then just trading The coins for other control coins and Loading out coins you can trade other Coins that's sort of a shell game within The industry I'm talking about real Applications out in the real world these Are the sorts of things that we've been Talking about Um and so for example we have two of the Of the banks that are on the council Standard Bank is the biggest bank in South in Africa and shinhan bank is the Oldest bank in South Korea and they set Up a thing using stable coins they Created not algorithmic stable coins
It's real stable coins uh and to allow You to do remittances and you could very Easily work in South Korea and earn South Korean Won and then send it to Your family in South Africa who use Rand And have it all be translated easily Because each bank is turning it into a Stable coin and then trading the stable Coins and it happens in seconds for Fractions of a penny for the transfer All of that stuff these are real world Applications it's not just playing games With inventing new coins and trading Them it's actual things of value And so I think that what we are doing is Putting our heads down we're hiring Engineers we're doing everything we can And we're seeing huge numbers of people Building real things on us And the crypto winter will probably go As long as the stock market is down but When the recession is over the crypto Winter I expect would end and then we Will be see a lot more interest as you Said but right now the thing to be doing Is to be getting real world applications Building on top of you and we are doing That we are doing interesting things With our evm to make that happen we're Doing interesting things with Outreach We have the H bar foundation and the Hashgraph association uh funding people Building on us uh all sorts of Interesting things there yeah I think
It's fascinating we talk about this Because if you go back to uh you know Let's go ahead it's 2019. uh this was The equivalent of where we are uh this Year in the Bitcoin cycle uh you had Your one year of gigantic drop and then Your one year of accumulation sideways Boring stuff like that and when you look Back at that time Um and you look at what projects were Being buzzed about you know in 2019 in The real crypto Community people we're Talking about nfts and they were talking About decentralized Finance but you Didn't really see any of those projects Come to fruition until 2020 turned over And so it was the building during 2019 Uh that really came to a head for a lot Of these projects that did uh that did Really well in the D5 space um you know I know a guy I talked to at that Conference I was at teller teller turned Out you know it was a blockchain Decentralized Oracle DVI project it Crushed it in the bull run I was like That guy was their building he was Networking he was making uh you know Doing interviews and you know no no Return on it initially but down the road You know when the interest comes back Certainly you know we want apps Especially in the D5 and nft world Because that's where the most real users Right now are now certainly supply chain
Tracking one day uh but people aren't Really using it on an individual base Yet so I want to ask you about ISO 20022 Do you know about it okay Um Um no go ahead okay okay so ISO 20022 is Basically a messaging standard that's Going to be put in place that manages Communication uh between Banks and they Want certain cryptos I know who they are But they want certain cryptos uh to be Involved in it they got to meet certain Types of uh qualifications well The rumor is H-bar is one of those I think there's Seven potential coins five they think Are pretty sure and two that are on the Edge I can't remember if I I always get Horn algorithm confused because they're The same logo colors that's what I know In the same shape the same shape right Yeah yeah so I know so but uh both on That list Um This is supposed to be in the regular Mainstream Financial World it could get Some use in that obviously people would Think the price would go up tremendously Uh xrp Stellar uh Quant uh are also on That list uh xdc So you don't know about 2002 but when You guys built uh hedera did you build It for the uh you know the retail person Or did you build it for kind of larger
Infrastructures like Enterprise or or You know the banking the banking world Could use it even We built it to be as good as possible And that sounds silly but that's Actually what we were doing at every Step we tried to say what would be the Best thing in the long term for real Scale real security real Um usefulness to the world if you build Something really good then that's for Retail and investors and businesses and You know what is the internet for is it For individuals or for companies well Really just for both for cats it's for Caps the purpose of the internet is to Watch videos of cats yes I do understand That yeah but but Trust layered Later years and from the beginning we've Said this is a hundred year project 100 Plus year project this is not just meant To be a flash in the pan this is meant To be something real used by the whole Planet and so you have people like the Government of Bahrain saying we're going To track all Pharmaceuticals on hedera You have all sorts of things like this Where people are starting to view this As the utility to use and what did we do Well we wanted to be super secure so Abft we wanted to have really good Governance not a shadowy group of a Handful of whales that control it or
Coders that control it but you can see Who is controlling it and then your Checks and balances on each other we Wanted to have it be extremely fast and Extremely inexpensive and have Predictable pricing you know I mentioned Predictable pricing is critical to Businesses but you know it's not bad for Individuals either as an individual I Like having predictable pricing as well I don't really like huge inflation and Unpredictable pricing so all of these Things that we were doing was trying to Do it right and if you do it right then Yes it's good for businesses it's good For individuals it's good for startups It's good for governments it's good for Everyone Yeah I think it's a great Point Um you know obviously you look at how Many people have done it wrong in Blockchain and crypto so the list far Outnumbers uh those that have done it Right and uh you know so from the time You guys launched I mean it's been a Slow and steady race I think you guys Launched with quite a bit of hype I Think there was a big drop off in the Price for after it launched and then uh You know you guys got to work building Out the Partnerships with Google and uh Some of those other ones so I'm excited To see uh you know where things go for You guys
Um I'm a big fan of big supporter uh It's one of my you know one of my top Projects it's in my Twitter bio I think Um but I love that H Barbarian Community They're awesome now last question as we Go here 2022 was a really hard year for a lot of Us uh almost everyone in crypto Um you know it was a really hard year For except for maybe Sam Bateman free Because he was taking all you know all Your money and man he's chilling at his Parents house back in San Francisco Having a great year but from your Perspective what is the greatest lesson That hedera or you personally or the Overlap thereof uh learned in uh last Year what we saw was a verification of What is important is the fundamentals it Is so easy to get caught up in a hype Cycle and get interested in the fad of The week what is important is the Fundamental underlying things and we Said this from the beginning we're Building a 100 year project we want to Be doing things the right way and just In 2022 we saw that emphasized again and In 2023 we're seeing it emphasized again When things are going great that's Wonderful but don't get distracted by it When everything seems to be falling Apart that's terrible but don't get Distracted by it keep focused on the Goal you are building something of value
For the entire planet to be using and That is what we've been doing and we Keep growing and that's what we're Focused on man that gets me fired up That's that's what I like to look at Things through that lens you know it's We're doing something bigger than just Making money on the internet you know We're changing things I think it's Always hilarious when I hear people say That crypto is like the Wild Wild West Uh we're gonna look back in 100 years From now and realize the internet was Still in the wild wild west during this Time and it's actually blockchain is the Sheriff that came to uh put it in check That's the way I look at it so but uh Yeah very excited to see where HR Goods Love to have you on channel uh you know In the future again and uh you know Everybody go check out H bar you guys Can uh we'll put the socials down below Thanks for joining us all right well Thanks a lot I enjoyed it thanks Absolutely [Music] Thank you [Music]
